At The Agudah Convention: We Need To Take A Stand Against Illegal Behavior

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23 COMMENTS

  1. This is yet another hashkafah that is picked up from our goyishe neighbors. To take someone, who has a wife, children, friends and community ties, and “throw them out of our shuls”? Do we really pasul someone, utterly destroy them and their family, because they did something wrong?

    This is cut from the same cloth as taking a politician who messed up, forcing them to do the perp-walk so they’ll be disgraced on the front cover of tomorrow’s daily, because they “deserve it”.

    Aren’t we better than that?

    Taking this approach will certainly help ingratiate ourselves to our goyishe friends – clearly part of what’s motivating David Greenfield. But that’s not the Yiddishe approach. When someone is going through a difficult time, we Yidden rally to support the person. It’s not our business to judge them, it’s not our business to punish them. We help them. It’s part of our collective DNA to be “rachmonim” – irregardless of what a person did or did not do. That’s just what Yidden do.

    Also, we would all love to consider ourselves “sheineh yidden” but the reality is most people have skeletons in their closet, be it their personal closet or their work closet. V’dai b’rimiza.

    Not to mention, matters of hashkafah like these should be discussed and decided by our rabbonim, not balabatim. David Greenfield is a wonderful politician, and I’m sure a wonderful person as well. But taking an approach of “throwing people out of shuls” is something for Daas Torah to decide, not the head of the Met Council.

  2. He is absolutely right. It comes from arrogance. Why are the sheeple so scared of a bum who made a few dollars illegally? They think THEY will be able to make some “deals” with these ganovim? Yesh din viyesh dayin. In the end, the Aibishter fersach the velt and they’ll get what’s coming to them.

  3. The resistance to publicly condemning anti-halachik and unethical behavior starts with the rabbanim of the Orthodox community. At one point this year we had 3 prominent members of our shul sitting in prisons for committing white collar crimes. We even had one unindicted co-conspirator be the Baal Musaf on Yom Kippur. When I asked my Rav to address the Congregation on the subject of business ethics, he declined stating:”I don’t want to embarrass the families”. ….and I love my Rav. I truly believe he is the Gadol HaDor. But, nothing else seems to work. When the criminals in our midst come back from prison, they are welcomed back to shul as if they did nothing wrong. Greenfield is right. This has to stop. Otherwise it will be business as usual. I once heard Rav Frand say that there is only one Mitzvah in the Torah: “Lo sichalilu es shem kodshi”. All the other 612 are there to protect the one. If our rabbanim remain silent Chillul Hashem will foster. (I usually sign my comments. But, I know that I will be ostracized if I sign this one.)

    • a few points;
      “you love your rav,” he is a godol hador” in your words lucky for you
      i assume you trust his psak on chayvei krisus… yet you dont trust the rabbonim on THIS issue . its the same godol that chose not to publicly shame or distance that bal habos
      one last question
      SCANDALS AND WHITE COLLAR CRIMES ARE NOT NEW how did rav moshe , rav yakov, rav ruderman, rav pam…. deal with these situations it is at the least a safek dinei nefashos”?
      finally the question should be paraphrased as follows ” yidden dont let yiddin fall , even when they have sinned yet to the world outside it portrays us as backing the criminal how do we balance that perception or do we not need to be concerned ? ask your rav waiting to hear from you

    • Are you really throwing around “chilul Hashem” as an excuse to “publically condemn” people?

      Some honesty. You are not that concerned with how people see Hashem’s name. You are concerned with how people see YOUR name. You know that when a Frum person is bad it reflects badly on other Frum people, including yourself. You don’t like that, and understandably so. You don’t want people seeing you as one of “those” people.

      But please, don’t convince yourself that you’re so concerned with Hashem’s glory. You are not. (Certainly not more so than your Rav, who you consider a gadol Hador).

  4. I dont think that we need to throw the person out of shul. however we definitely should not praise and defend what they do.
    and yes a person whom is michalel shaim shomayim berabim perhaps should be put in charim until they fix what they did wrong.
    AND EMBARRASSING THEIR FAMILY IS NOT THE TORAH WAY!

  5. 1. This was a panel discussion. He was bringing this up to have a conversation. I do agree with many of the points but not all. I think it was very good he aired this out there. It’s very important to do so to have the conversation.
    2. I was once somewhere where it was asked to a Rav who also serves as a chaplin in a jail on how do you help the Frum people in jail when they went against halacha. He gave a great answer. He said his job as chaplin is NOT to judge the convict. That was the states job! That is why they are sitting in jail. However his job per the state is to assist in any religious needs for the prisoners.
    3. I would not go that far and say they they should be thrown out of the community (depending on that they did. if they are still a danger to others (like abusers) then yes throw them out!!!). Here we are talking about white collar crime. When they served their time lets not make parties etc (I do believe the Rubashkin case was a bit different but still it went just a little overboard but understandable). Maybe they have to go one or two years after getting out without any getting a choshuv aliyas. We can give shevei or something. If a Levi or Kohen he should not get an aliya.
    4. You do not show the entire video. David gives an analogy of someone who drives on Shabbos to Shul. Would you give him Shishi?

    Bottom line if someone does something wrong and he does not feel any repercussions by the community he and others will do the same again. This is a problem. If you are going to be a Frum jew act like one!!

    • You are certainly entitled to your opinion – including the minutiae of what onesh the community should dole out. Shvii in okay, but shishi, Kohen and Levi are no goes. For 1-2 years they’re banned, but after 1-2 years of this punishment they can be readmitted to the community.

      I’m of the opinion that it’s not the place of a community, shul, or city council member to punish people.

      Certainly if their “guilt” was established only by a goyishe judge or jury, or even by a guilty plea, which in white collar crimes is always a legal maneuver intended to get something out of it.

      But even if the person is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. It’s not our responsibility nor our right to punish people. Our responsibility is to help the person and their family in a difficult time. (Irregardles of “they brought it on themselves”, “if you do the crime do the time” and other platitudes we learned from the goyishe world around us).

      This isn’t anything deep. This isn’t Maharal, this isn’t even Rabbi Frand. This is much more basic. Go into Eichlers and buy “A Yid Cares” from R’ Yitzi Erps. We care about our fellow yid, our fellow mespallel, our neighbor down the road.

      Chazal say “af al pi she’chotoh Yisroel hu”. We don’t ban, ostracize, or throw away people just because they sinned. They’re our brothers. We love them.

      • So why were you silent here when the pro vaxxers openly proclaim that the anti vaxxers are rodfim and should be KICKED OUT OF THEIR SHULS AND YESHIVOS???! You are a hypocrite of the worst kind!

    • You are certainly entitled to your opinion – including the minutiae of what onesh the community should dole out. Shvii in okay, but shishi, Kohen and Levi are no goes. For 1-2 years they’re banned, but after 1-2 years of this punishment they can be readmitted to the community.

      I’m of the opinion that it’s not the place of a community, shul, or city council member to punish people.

      Certainly if their “guilt” was established only by a goyishe judge or jury, or even by a guilty plea, which in white collar crimes is always a legal maneuver intended to get something out of it.

      But even if the person is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. It’s not our responsibility nor our right to punish people. Our responsibility is to help the person and their family in a difficult time. (Irregardles of “they brought it on themselves”, “if you do the crime do the time” and other platitudes we learned from the goyishe world around us).

      This isn’t anything deep. This isn’t Maharal, this isn’t even Rabbi Frand. This is much more basic. Go into Eichlers and buy “A Yid Cares” from R’ Yitzi Erps. We care about our fellow yid, our fellow mespallel, our neighbor down the road.

      Chazal say “af al pi she’chotoh Yisroel hu”. We don’t ban, ostracize, or throw out people just because they sinned. They’re our brothers. We love them.

  6. The above signed proclamation clearly states that it is a mitzvah to publicize the names of those that are moserim and the “Rabbi’s” who sanctioned this anthesis to Torasainu H’kdosha behavior.

  7. He gives a simple solution to a complicated matter.
    Each person is different. I know/knew the finest, sweetest people who would steal, rob, molest, harm, murder, etc.
    Many of these people experienced the Holocaust. Many of these people didn’t think or know that what they did was wrong. We should not judge nor can we judge such a person. They need Rachamei Shomayim and medical help to continue their “twisted” existence in today’s world. Hashem Yeracheim.

    • The Torah commands us to pursue justice.

      We are commanded to set up courts/judges along with police (law enforcement).

      Our faith does not advocate anarchy and lawlessness.

      Persecutions of many decades ago are not an excuse for people acting improperly.

      People who act improperly need to pay a price. If the price is heavy, they earned it.

    • Didn’t HE use His position as CITY councilman to get HIMSELF a cushy do nothing job supposedly fighting poverty and making more than POTUS?

  8. Only a great Talmud chacham could tell the tzibur how treat someone found guilty in arkaos. I wonder if anything more substantial came out of the convention. So far I heard nothing.

  9. Fellow brothers running afoul of the law is nothing new. I challenge all shoskim in this thread to find me one, ONE precedent to you twisted from of Judaism where it was paskened that you should throw another yid under the bus for not following Dina dmalchusa. I don’t want to see any censoredsource where it was ruled under pressure of the govt. Don’t sell me your emotions, your halacha, your reformed twisted professional logic. I don’t care how well educated or college degree you hold. Were discussing halachik professionalism not university degree. How dare you ignore halacha and set profess your ignorance as halacha. Halacha on lo taamod ol dam reacha, pidyon shviyim (doche shabbat) look up maimonides rulings. Shame on you for disgracing the Jewish religion with your ignorant public sourceless statements.

  10. The councilman is of course correct in general of how we must clearly stand strongly against improper behavior.

    Cf the story of how Rav Shimon Schwab zt”l acted when asked to intervene with a politician who was a member of his kehillah on behalf of a “frum” crook. How strongly he rejected the idea.

    Cf Rav Breuer zt”l – Glatt kosher? Glatt yosher!

    Re details re how to deal with family members, etc., rabbonim can figure that out.

  11. There are plenty of criminals in shuls across America. They used their ill-gotten money to have their records expunged. Now they’re toiveled!!
    If your going to make a shidduch, look into this now rather than discover it later after it is too late.

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